gerbie | Mister Bush, do feel free to use this

It took a while before we learned what we did wrong. It took a big attack, in which thousands of innocent lives have been lost, before we realised that the way we are dealing with the rest of the world was wrong. I am very sorry that this has had to happen. From here there are two possible options. A third world war or a continuation of what we have been doing over the last decade, a cold war against everything we Americans considered wrong. It would make the cold war look like a fight in kindergarten. We shall take none of these options. As a true Christian, we will turn the other cheek. The only way this cycle can be stopped as by not reacting. No retaliation, no attacks on possible suspects. I shall repeat this, read my lips, NO RETALIATION.

It is time for us to admit that we had this one coming. Fifty years of interfering everywhere in the world whenever it suited us has come to a bloody final. Now we see what we have done in Korea and Vietnam. In Cuba and the Dominican Republic. In Haiti and Guatemala. In Nicaragua and Chile. In Panama and Somalia. And in dozens of other countries. Thousands of innocent Americans have become the victim of an idiot who wanted us to know what we did wrong. Until now we knew, but thought we could get away with it. We couldn't.

From now on we shall do whatever is necessary to help all those families in this tragedy. But not only the thousands who have died in the last 24 hours, but also those thousands who died in the last 50 years, because we considered our position in the world more important than the lives of individuals. The whole budget from defence will go to welfare, social benefits or third world development. We will finally pay off our billions of debt to the UN. We well recognise the UN as the true world power, the voice of the people of the world. We will do as the majority wants us to. We shall propose the abolishment of veto's for countries who happen to have too much power.

Finally I shall resign from my position as President of the United States of America. We will soon have new elections in which every vote is counted, in which democracy will really work. Until then I shall hand over the power to the senate.

Let our thoughts be with the ones who have lost their lives. Thank you for your attention, God bless America and peace on earth!

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

aquariusmama.livejournal.com

I just happened to come across these posts. Thank you for yours. I think most Americans want to find a way to heal from this. Revenge is a first reaction, but there is so much more to it. When I see people putting down Americans right now it breaks my heart even more. I am amazed and proud of my country, I have never witnessed patriotism like this. I have never seen so many people crying and singing together. I have never seen so many American flags. The fact is that there is no reason for this. There is no "deserving" of the kind of destruction we had Tuesday. No reason for it at all. I think it has made America stronger because we must now respect our leaders and not take our rights and freedoms for granted. I will never apologize for taking those things for granted, though. I wish everyone in the world could, but I guess that would be spreading my "western" influence.

From:

frannywentzel.livejournal.com

I was in your country for my August vacation and had the privilege of being able to visit one of the last surviving Boeing B-17 Superfortresses. Clambering though the insides I was awestruck at what kind of human beings would in the freezing stratosphere pack into such a space with little for protection but a scantling of ammunition to try and break the back of Nazi terror in the only way available to them. An appalling number didn't come home but none ever turned back in fear.

These were ordinary men with dreams of girls, children, futures who didn't want war but when it was forced upon them did the superhuman and saved the world from the darkest of evil.

Now you Americans are forced to do it again and that is all that matters now. I wish you Godspeed.

From:

gerbie.livejournal.com

which is exactly why a lot of people elsewhere in the world resent the American way...

From:

aquariusmama.livejournal.com

People resent Western influence or the fact that I wish we could all take our freedoms and safety for granted? Or is it that I don't apologize for taking things for granted? Which one?
I assume you mean Western influence. You know what? I couldn't care less whether someone in another country is eating McDonalds or wearing Levis. As far as music and movies that's art, don't watch if you don't want the influence. If someone lives in a country that won't allow them the personal choice of these things...I feel that's wrong. It doesn't matter what the religion is or culture is, we have so many cultures in our country and they still manage to hold on to the customs they practice. (True, we don't approve of honor killings and female mutilation here, but hey, you have to give up some things in America.) They live right in the middle of the "dreaded" western influence.
As far as politics? Well, how much money has the U.S. given away all over the world? Who jumps in to help the U.S.? Who pays us back? How often do we help out other countries that are suffering or being attacked? A hell of a lot! That's great and I have no problem with it, I think we should help, most of the time. Whether we get involved in any situation or not we will be criticized either way.
I just think a lot of things have been proved in the last few days about how my country works. I am proud of it. I'm not a George W. fan and don't know of that many that are, but everyone seems to be joining together. I think most people in this country are compassionate and don't want to see a drastic step taken against an already devastated country.
Oh, by the way, the post you had about the UN and having a world democracy. Frankly, that scares the hell out of me at this point.

From:

gerbie.livejournal.com

Don't you think that an independent world organisation, something UN-like or something the UN should be, should take up all the things you ascribe to your country. Why would you help countries in need, why would you send money? In the end you will want something back for it. Money, economic dependency, political influence, an alley in a communal battle. Something. America is a capitalist country by definition, you don't do something for nothing. The stronger UN shouldn't be scary but a sort of world government, loosely based on the idea of the American consitution, in which all members can decide a lot themselves, just things that are bigger than just themselves should be decided by majority vote. Wouldn't that be a true democracy? Am I dreaming?

From:

aquariusmama.livejournal.com

Ok, sure, that makes sense. Not every country is for a democracy, though, are they? I think the evidence of the last week proves it. I think too many countries are sending mixed messages. Yes, terrorism is bad someone should stop it, oh...but not us. Or sure, we will join the fight against terrorism but you need to support us in our internal conflicts. What is that???? Terrorism affects the whole world. Last year, even two weeks ago, I NEVER thought I would say this...but..I completely agree with everything (gulp) President Bush said last night. Truly, you are either in the fight against terrorism or you are behind terrorism.

Whether I agree with you or not, I am really glad that we are able to exchange ideas. If it were up to some leaders in this world we would never be able to do that. That is another scary thought right now.

From:

gerbie.livejournal.com

I have to admit I haven't seen Bush, the time difference and a busy schedule stopped me. It's out there on the web, but I've read several reports already and don't think I'll bother. If you agree, you might try to convince me why you feel he was so right. I only heard, from people I find believable, that it was all utterly directed, even the pauses were fake, the words sounded just as the people would have wanted. I can't believe in a president who hasn't got the skills to be there, just the connections. Whatever he says. It just means that the real power is somewhere else. Which scares me even more, because I don't know who it/they/he/she is, what the hidden agenda is about.

But I completely agree on the fact that it is good that at least we can discuss. Was it Voltaire who said: "I do not agree with what you say, but I'll defend your right to your opinion with my life", or something amongst these lines. Freedom of speech is a huge right!

From:

aquariusmama.livejournal.com

Ha! I totally agree, his speech was utterly directed, and the pauses...yes, I know. All of that was why I have never supported him. He is fake and I don't think he is too smart. BUT, he does seem to have some kind of connection with people, not me, but they're out there. I am not worried about who is behind him and directing him because I think that's obvious. Colin Powell for one, really like him. I think Bush has surrounded himself with very intelligent people, (VP Chaney may be smart, but I find his history to be way too right wing.)
As far as what was said (his words or not), I think a few things stuck with me. He made the point that the Taliban and Terrorism don't have anything to do with Islam. (May seem obvious, but some people don't realize that...including the terrorist themselves.) He demanded that the Taliban immediately hand over all the leaders of Al Qaeda, release unfairly imprisoned Americans, foreign nationals, hand over every terrorist and their support structures to authorities, give US access to terrorist training camps and provide protection to aid workers and others working in their land. If they don't do all this, they will suffer the same fate as the terrorists.
Mainly I agree with the point that this is not America's fight. This is everyone in the world's fight. America is not the only one whose freedom is at risk. I agree that now is the time for all nations to make a decision, you are either in the fight against terrorists or you are with the terrorists...it is that simple. I know there is a lot to risk here, it's huge...but I don't think that any country should be sitting back to watch how it comes out. We are all at risk and terrorism isn't going to go away.
We can't just appease someone like bin Ladin. It doesn't work that way. He honestly wants to destroy our way of life. He wants us to be scared, if we are, he wins. If we attack and kill his people, they are heros, he wins. He wants to make it look like we are attacking to rid the world of Islam. I don't really think we have a choice, it is time for covert operations. It is time to infiltrate his regime, it is time to bring the Taliban down. How long have we sat back and done nothing about their destruction of life? We have sent aid workers there to help. What happens to them? They are imprisoned for owning bibles. Thank God they weren't Muslims because they would have been killed for owning the bibles.
It's time. I am scared of it all, and I definitly don't like it. I can't imagine war, I don't know what to say to my kids...but I don't think there is a choice. I won't live with fear, and I won't lose my freedoms because we are afraid of terrorists. No way.

From:

gerbie.livejournal.com

I think it is a ridiculous suggestion to have to make a choice between the US and terrorists. Who is he to tell me to choose now. What happend to independence, to being neutral? I've seen some 'highlights' on tv tonight. I agree with one journalist here who said that overnight, without realising it, he had become a terrorist.

It is time to bring down Taliban? Basically what you are saying is that the politics that have caused these terrorists, whoever they are, will be continued. A war that can't be won.

Firstly, who has any evidence that Bin Laden is behind all this. Secondly, who helped the Taliban to get the power they have today. Who send them money and weapons in their war with the Soviet Union. It was the USA. Btw remember what happened to the Sovjets? It'll happen to anyone trying to mess with them. There is no way you can win a war with people who couldn't care less if they win or die and become martyrs.

From:

aquariusmama.livejournal.com

First of all the choice is not between the US and terrorists!! Not at all, and that is where people don't seem to "get it". It is a choice between believing in freedom and fighting for it or allowing terrorism to continue. Being neutral does not make you immune to terrorism. Being neutral does not give you the right to sit back while the rest of the world deals with a threat to the safety of all of us. This fight is not just America's fight, I don't understand where the confusion is on this. There for you only have three choices you either will fight to rid the world of terrorists, you agree and support the terrorists, or you will sit back and watch it all happen hoping that you are not personally affected.

As far as bringing down the Taliban. That would actually be a personal opinion. I don't think that that is a US objective. Look into what the Taliban is responsible for as far as violating human rights. Pure evil. This has been something that I have been concerned and upset about for a very long time. So personally, yeah, I want to see them fall. I want to see the people of Afghanistan released from their disgusting displays of power.

As far as proof to connection with Bin Ladin. You may want to look into that. There is an amazing amount of proof. Everyone that has been arrested and the hijackers themselves had close ties to him. The US does not need to provide specific proof because it is available to anyone who would like to see it. There is no need to waste time arguing over it, pick up a newspaper and it will be outlined for you every single day.

I do agree with you that it is a scary prospect to be dealing with people who could care less whether they win or die martyrs. You are absolutely right, but should the world sit back and do nothing because they are crazy? They want to abolish the governments of other Muslim countries, they want to abolish all freedoms (speech, religion, voting, assemblage). So the world should just let them do what they want because of a fear of their fearlessness? If they had their way you and I would not even be discussing this right now. It would be against all laws! No, neutrality is NOT a choice. It is a failure to make one.

From:

gerbie.livejournal.com

"First of all the choice is not between the US and terrorists"
I know it isn't, but that was the way Bush tried to portray it. I choose against terrorists. Any time, without any doubt and I don't think anybody with a bit of common sense wouldn't. But that is NOT a choice to combat it the way Bush is considering at the moment.

"the Taliban is responsible for as far as violating human rights"
They are. They shouldn't be. Something should be done about it. But why now? Why is the urge suddenly there? Why not when they turned Afghanistan from a very civilized progressive country into a medieval dump twenty years ago? Why was there only a bit of formal protest when they took down old Buddha statues, that were on the world heritage list? And why only Afghanistan? There are dozens of other countries that violate human rights. That includes your own, ask Amnesty International. Yes, something should be done, the faster the better, but not a war. There shouldn't be any innocent victims. We've already got over 6000 of them, every single extra one is too much.

"pick up a newspaper and it will be outlined for you every single day"
I do every day. I pick up three a day exactly. Sometimes even more. I read teletext (something you don't have in the states, a sort of limited newsinfo behind a tv channel) and on the web. I think I'm well informed. But I haven't read any proof, only suspicions. Like there were in Oklahama, where eventually an American turned out to be the gulity. How soon can you proof something this big. I agree with this Pakistani guy I saw today. It took America over a year to do the OJ trial, how come Bin Laden is guilty within 7 days? Innocent until proven guilty. I know there are clues. Plenty. But the only way to continue is a non violent one. Get him extradicted and give him a fair trial.

"No, neutrality is NOT a choice. It is a failure to make one"
Disagree. It is my choice. Not until I know enough facts to give a fair judgment, I try to stay neutral. That's why I often do not take sides. I will take sides against terrorism anytime, as I stated above. But I won't choose against Afghanistan. I do not want to choose between Bush and Bin Laden. In my opinion they're both insane. They have both done plenty wrong. They have both killed plenty of innocents. Don't force me to choose.

From: (Anonymous)

' It took America over a year to do the OJ trial, how come Bin Laden is guilty within 7 days?'

I have a bit of evperience in the legal system so I might comment a bit. Any district attorney will tell you most evidence is gathered in the first couple weeks after a case. Often a case is 'cracked' on the spot. It depend on a variety of factors like eyewitnesses, physical evidence, etc.The rest of the time before a trial is paperwork, motions and the like.

Without getting into particulars evidence was found linking Bin Laden materially to almost all the hijackers so far. His hand seem to be all over this one. Whether a jury buys the evidence is speculation but I wouldn't lose any sleep if he got whacked tomorrow. His rap sheet's a mile long and he makes no bones about being an innocent choirboy.

OJ toook a year because his legal team dragged out the case. Still OJ did more time than many a murder suspect which brings up the story about a judge handing out a sentence, "If your guilty consider yourself lucky for getting a short sentence. If your innocent let that be a lesson to you!"

From:

gerbie.livejournal.com

I know there is plenty of stuff linking him, but no direct evidence. As you say, it might not stand up in a trial. I just liked the quote from this guy, because the OJ trial gave the whole world an example how cases can get lost after a years trial, even though nearly everybody considers him guilty. But he couldn't be convicted on that trial, the reasonable doubt was there. As there is still doubt about Bin Laden's role in this story. Ask anybody with half a brain and they'll name him. But I still prefer a world where the guilty get aquitted, above a world where the innocent hang!

From:

aquariusmama.livejournal.com

The evidence against bin Ladin can't be released because it is classified. It would endanger the lives and positions of the intelligence people that have gathered it. It would endanger the countries in the Middle East that have offered it. To release the information to early would cut off ways of obtaining any info in the future. It would give the Taliban clues as to how info is obtained. That would be stupid. The proof will be offered when everything is in place to make a move. There is NO way it could have gotten this far if there wasn't overwhelming proof and the government wasn't 100% sure. The evidence has been shared with Great Britain, Germany and France so far.

From:

gerbie.livejournal.com

Excuse me for sounding cynical, but who has the evidence? If it is classified, why let everyone know that there is evidence. If they've got it, why tell others? Is it the Taliban or Bin Laden who is behind it. To me the CIA or FBI having proof sounds as convincing as the statement by the Taliban telling the world they don't know where Bin Laden is.

From:

aquariusmama.livejournal.com

Wow, you are cynical! I am having a hard time with your whole statement.
"Why let everyone know?" Well, aren't you the one that wants to see the evidence. What if they were saying absolutely nothing? Wouldn't you be even more annoyed? They can say that there is evidence and not be giving away classified information. What do you think they should do?
"If they've got it, why tell others?" Come on, really? Of course those that have offered to fight need to know everything possible.
It is bin Ladin that is behind it. Some people in the Taliban support what he does, some don't. If the Taliban continues to protect him and his followers, then they are included.

Why are you so distrusting of Americans? Why do you have such a cynical view of us? Why do you think the CIA and FBI would be misleading the world? Nobody wants a war, nobody wants innocent people to die. Where does all of this distrust come from, can you help me understand that?

From:

gerbie.livejournal.com

The distrust comes from the fact that the CIA has played a role in many operations abroad that weren't for the good of the world, not for the world peace, but purely and solely because the US thought it was necessary, either for win of money or win of political power. I do not distrust Americans, I distrust the American political system.

If the CIA had told the world that they didn't have any evidence at the moment, what do you think the reactions would be? The best reaction for them would be that they were called incompetent, it could be much worse. So it would surprise me had they said so. So if they say they do have evidence, I just think: they would, wouldn't they, regardless if it is true or not.

From:

aquariusmama.livejournal.com

I guess you will just have to wait and see then. I believe the evidence is there. I believe you're right about some CIA operations. However, I don't necessarily disagree with them doing things to benefit just our country. It depends on the specifics. Unless you can give me that, then I don't know.

From:

gerbie.livejournal.com

An entry I wrote earlier this year about a great book. An American was killed in Santiago, because he knew too much.

http://www.livejournal.com/talkread.bml?itemid=4637600

The book told me about the role the CIA played in Chile.

From:

aquariusmama.livejournal.com

Ok, I am sure there have been some shady things done in the name of the CIA. I don't doubt that at all. I may completely disagree with some of it. I don't know about this particular case, though. It sounds vaguely familiar, I would bet there is more to it. There are at least 2 sides to every story right? I will look into it though.

I thought it was interesting, though, in your "book review" you mentioned your prejudice against the US. That is what I really want to understand. If you have a bias already then you can make everything you read and hear prove that bias. You seek out the information to boost your beliefs. Nothing wrong with that. I just would like to understand exactly where you are coming from.
I just personally think that I live in a really amazing and beautiful country. I also think many other countries are beautiful and amazing. I may not agree with everything that my country has done in history... but I really believe in what America stands for. How many Americans do you know? Not LJ know, but REALLY know. I am just curious.
Also, remember, the US is not the only country to have a "shady" past. (Or present.) If you base your opinion on the CIA you are going to have to do that for all secret operatives in all nations. I'm sure if that information were available you would be shocked.

From:

gerbie.livejournal.com

Very true, I wouldn't want to know everything that goes on behind the scenes in international politics. I agree that the US has got some brilliant things, that other countries lack.

I also agree with the statement that if you're biased already, you will look for things to confirm. I do know some Americans. Not many. But I have met plenty of them, I also travelled through the States on three occasions.

The thing that nags me has to do with the fact that my country is politically completely depending on the US. Coming back to the cold war point I have used before. Why did we have to choose between the two parties who together battled the Germans out of my country? Why suddenly was America heaven and the Soviet Union hell? Why do we have to stay loyal infinitely because your country helped rebuild my country. When do we start thinking for ourselves again.

I have written about this before. Another link:

http://www.livejournal.com/talkread.bml?itemid=5285251

Obviously I exaggerated, the last sentence came back to haunt me three months later, if you have got time read, and also read the comments by others and my replies. It gives a bit more an idea why I have reacted as I have done up until now.

From:

aquariusmama.livejournal.com

Ok, I read it. I think that I will take up too much space with my thoughts so I will respond to you in my journal, Ok? See ya there.

Re: Thank you from Detective Inspector Joe Doakes

From:

gerbie.livejournal.com - Date: 2001-09-29 12:44 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

aquariusmama.livejournal.com

Granted, Bush did make it sound as if the choice was either with "us" or with the terrorists. The speech was being addressed to the American people, though. Yes, people all over the world would hear it but it was basically a "pep rally" for the nation. Us could also be taken as meaning NATO, since all nations in NATO should be joining in the fight because of Article 5.

Fully agree something should have been done about the Taliban before. As I said it has been a sore subject with me for quite some time. Why now? Well, the attention of the world is being drawn to it. There are a lot of people out there that don't read papers or watch the news or even give a crap about the rest of the world. (There are people like that in every country.) So, why not? It's a touchy time. Volitile? Yes, but it always is.
I believe you are very well read! Otherwise I would not enjoy having a conversation with you at all. I love to hear other views, as long as they are educated...like yours ;). There is proof that they were involved with bin Ladin. Various trails have led back to him. OJ?????? Come on!!! Let's not start that, arghhhhh!! :)
Extradite Bin Ladin? Isn't that what was being attempted and flat out turned down? Too, late. Anyway, how many terrorist attacks do you think the world would see during his trial?
Still have to disagree on the neutral thing, sorry. I understand being neutral in some cases but this time I don't. As far as Bush killing "innocents", I assume you mean the death penalty and him being the Gov. of Texas. Hmm, that's a whole other discussion.

From:

gerbie.livejournal.com

Article five scares me. Just because my grandparents generation considered the Americans more important in the defeat of the Germans, something they couldn't have done without the other option, the russians, nowadays if some weird president in your country says its war, I am supposingly in war as well.

I think I'm well read, I enjoy knowing a lot of things from everywhere. Similarily I can return the compliment. Even though we seem to disagree most of the time, we are still talking in a civilised way. It confirms that I have to be carefull with my prejudice, not all Americans are ignorant. LJ proves that quite often I have to say, then again, during the heat of the discussions a week-weekandahalf ago some people seemed to have lost all sense of reality.

The death penalty is a different discussion, true, but not entirely unrelated. Only today I read that most Europeans will refuse extradiction to the States, as long as the death penalty is a risk. However extreme, I can understand some extremists who say that they too have used the death penalty: flying some planes into the WTC.

From:

aquariusmama.livejournal.com

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean about the Russians and Americans. Are you saying that the Russians helped defeat Germany more than the Americans? How do you feel about the fact that the Russians are involved in the fight against terrorism? Do you think that Americans dislike Russians?
Do you really think that most Americans are ignorant? This is a huge country, there are a lot of different kinds of people here. I don't think that anyone can broadly generalize or stereotype Americans...that seems ignorant to me. As far as losing a sense of reality, well, I think all Americans did for a while there. Now, we are getting a different reality all together. I think we are becoming a much stronger country all together. Things that my generation and even my parent's generation hardly thought about have become so important. Patriotism, our love of freedom and a respect for our country and the way it works.
I am really interested in knowing where your opinions of Americans come from. I know that we don't have the best reputation in some countries but I would really like to know why. I don't have any generalizations about you.
As far as the last comment, what did the people killed on the 11th do to warrant the death penalty? I read that Iraq said the attacks resulted from US policies. So those people deserved the death penalty? Our death penalty doesn't have anything to do with the mass murder of innocent people. I have some reservations about the death penalty. It scares me that an innocent person might be put to death. However, I believe that if someone is responsible (without a doubt) for some particularily heinous crime(s) then they don't deserve to be kept alive by my tax dollars. I think Texas over used the death penalty. Not every state has a death penalty. I think that shows that there are conflicting opinions nationwide about it. As far as extraditing and (after trial) putting to death someone like bin Ladin. Hmm, I don't know. I would love for him to suffer a horrible and painful death for what he (if proven) did. (The death penalty isn't painful though, unfortunately for some.) More than death for him, though, I would love to watch him live a long life...
I want to see him suffer as he realizes everything he has attempted to do has failed. I want him to watch as peaceful Islam followers grow and prosper hand in hand with all other religions and nations. I want him to see what is accomplished when religious freedom is respected. I want to see Isreal and Muslim nations in peace, and watch him discover that terrorism will not work. It has no place in this world. I want him to see all of his followers hunted down. Most of all, I want him to realize that he is the cause of the fall of his warped brand of Islam. If he hadn't pushed and forced the world into action...who knows what would've happened. (Which is back to why you are involved in the fight against terrorism, the world needs you too.)