(no subject)

[gerbie]

Nice article I read somewhere else on LJ. There are thinking Americans after all.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/639017.asp?0na=2101110R&cp1=1


Though I guess I already knew after plenty of reactions on two of my posts here. It does give you a ray of hope for the future after seeing what happened yesterday. I love these discussions with well thinking people from everywhere, even though I don't agree with half of them most of the time. I'm glad my LJ list has at least 7 nationalities, even more cultural backgrounds.

Comments

Like it, like it

[aquariusmama.livejournal.com]

You're right, that is a good article. The reason those writers were fired and Bill Maher was in criticised was because sometimes we are too "PC" in this country. People get so damned concerned about not offending anyone it's ridiculous.

I am glad something has finally started happening in Afghanistan though. Especially after seeing bin Laden's little taped message. What an evil bastard.

Re: Like it, like it

[gerbie.livejournal.com]

But who suffered under these attacks. Not Bin Laden. Innocent people, like all those innocents who died in NY and DC. Why is the moral upperhand with Bush?

Re: Like it, like it

[aquariusmama.livejournal.com]

Come on! Innoncent people weren't the target. There shouldn't have been any innocent people on the Military bases, training camps and Taliban headquarters. It's not as if there was no warning at all, this took quite a while to happen. The Taliban knew it was coming, innocent people knew it was coming, they left in droves! I think it is horrible if innocent people died, I am sure some did, but no where near the amount of innocent people that die at the hands of terrorists and the Taliban. The Taliban can't talk about innocent people dying, they've been killing innocent people daily for years. What about the widows and children starving to death because women aren't allowed to work?
It's war, innocent people do die. Especially when their own government doesn't give a damn about them. If innocent civilians died in these attacks it is because the Taliban government wanted them to die for photo ops and media propaganda. The Taliban and bin Laden want this to happen, then they can go forward with their insane point of a war on Islam. Demented fools. The only ones to blame for this are the Taliban, bin Laden and those who blindly follow them in their own perverted version of Islam.
What is it that we're supposed to do? Give in to the terrorists? Take our support away from Isreal as they ask? NO. I don't get any of that either. All the holy places over there aren't just holy and sacred for Muslims, they are for Jews and Christians too. I just don't get the mindset of any of it. How is the spread of "western influence" worse than the spread of the Taliban? You know, you're a target too, they want to rid the world of you too. It doesn't matter to them where you live or what your opinions are, if you are not a follower they want you dead. So stand back with a bleeding heart and pray for peace huh?? I hope for peace too, I just am being realistic.

Re: Like it, like it

[gerbie.livejournal.com]

Does realism mean that you can still choose one evil over the other? Yes, the Taliban has done horrible things over the last decade and a half. The country was a reasonable liberal and westernized country until they came into power. But two wrongs don't make a right. It is inevitable that innocent victims will fall. War is no excuse. No country has declared the US war, just some terrorists, who can be linked to an individual with power and money, but no country.

Giving in is not necessary, but I don't think this is the solution either.

Re: Like it, like it

[aquariusmama.livejournal.com]

No, of course this is not the ideal solution! I agree with you there. What choice was there? We demanded that they turn over bin Laden, evidence has been shown, we gave warning after warning...then what? If they ignore it all and refuse we say "Oh, ok, well um, let's talk again." I don't think so. That doesn't work. It isn't true that bin Laden is linked to no country. The Taliban is linked to him, he gives money to the Taliban and supports them. They give him refuge and protection in Afghanistan. They refuse to turn him over, he is linked. All the Taliban had to do was turn him over, that's it, then there would have been an opening for discussion. They knew this was coming, they were given a final 72 hour warning and chose to dismiss it.
As far as civilians getting killed, with 72 hours warning they could have moved all civilians if they gave a damn. The point is they didn't and don't care about the Afghan people.
It isn't that I am not disgusted by this, I am! I am sick and scared about what may happen here with all the twisted psychos. I just think it is obvious that no one can reason with them because it is beyond reason. Deystroying and taking out the Taliban and bin Laden is the only option left. If it unearths more terrorists and more unrest, that will have to be dealt with too.

What do you think the US should have done next??

What would you want done if the terrorist were targeting your country? Would you expect support? Would you want protection? What if they killed people you know?? What if your friends had been near the attacks and were struggling daily with the visions?? What would you think? Would you be so passive? Would you be so nuetral?

Re: Like it, like it

[gerbie.livejournal.com]

It is true that one's view always change as soon as things like this happen to come (too) close. I'm not saying I want the world to be passive, I just say that an eye for an eye has never brought a solution. I'd still try to be neutral, however difficult it might be. But it wouldn't comfort me knowing that innocent people had died out of revenge.

Re: Like it, like it

[aquariusmama.livejournal.com]

No, I don't want innocent people to die either. Thousands died on Sept 11th though. This really has nothing to do with the innocent people living in Afghanistan. Anytime there is a military action though, innocent people get hurt. It is sad and unavoidable. Maybe the Taliban and bin Laden could have thought of that, but once again, they don't give a damn.

Re: Like it, like it

[gerbie.livejournal.com]

I know the military action is aimed at the responsible. Problem is that the innocents are the ones who die, as happened in NY. Several UN staff have died. The ones you want to suffer, are the ones who are powerfull enough to avoid suffering. These actions can never be succesful.

Re: Like it, like it

[aquariusmama.livejournal.com]

On September 11th war was declared on America. There was no warning, there was no build up, there were no official discussions or any way to avoid it. Thousands of innocent people from many countries were killed in this attack on American soil. The US had no choice but to be dragged into a war against the agressors. This wasn't a war the US asked for or that anyone wanted. We were given NO choice. When the US identified bin Ladin as the one responsible the responsibility fell to Afghanistan and to bin Laden himself.
The Taliban has accepted hundreds of millions from bin Laden in support. They have harbored and supported and encouraged his actions. There for they are linked and also responsible.
Afghanistan has known since 9/11 that this military response was coming. They did nothing to prevent it, they had many chances, they did nothing. They had WEEKS to move innocent people, the US did not. They still did nothing. They have had warning after warning over the last few weeks and they did not listen. They were given a final 72 hour warning, still nothing.
Now there are complaints about innocent people dying? Those complaints need to be directed to the Taliban and bin Laden. The people who are dying are the ones the government ignored, too poor to have the means to leave on their own. The Taliban and bin Laden have the money and the means to move these people. They want their deaths, they want the US to be blamed. They could be killing people themselves just to blame it on the US, who knows. You are right, the ones that should be suffering are powerful enough to avoid it, for now, but they should also be preventing the suffering of their people. They were able to prevent military action, they were able to prevent a war, they are the only ones that had that choice.

As far as UN deaths. 4 Afghan security guards for the UN were killed. That is horrible. What about the people that are rallying against the US, though. What are they doing? They are attacking UN buildings and burning them down. The Pakistani police are the ones that are having to shoot these morons. Do you think they care about innocent lives really (the moron rallying people)? If they did, why burn down the buildings of the UN, who are there to help the suffering. No, the Pakistanis just don't want any more starving Afghans in their country. It's a mess, but it is not something that can fall on the US's shoulders. Not this time, not this particular situation.
They shouldn't have attacked Americans without expecting a price to be paid.

Re: Like it, like it

[gerbie.livejournal.com]

I can't remember a declaration of war. Have I missed something? Which country announced that they are at war with the US?

A war is one country against another. Or more. But NOT terrorism, that's an entirely different story. And even though there seems to be evidence against one person, I still haven't seen conclusive evidence.

As for those innocents: these people could have been moved, offcourse, apart from the fact that there wasn't a benefit in it for the Taliban. It would have been like an invitation: look, here we are, it's just us, bomb us. The innocent people in Afganistan have been suffering for nearly two decades now. They have suffered under the Taliban, a movement that became strong as a result of American influence in the cold war. They are the ones that have been dying in big numbers for ages, when the whole world has been ignoring them. Why should the Taliban suddenly change their policy? They are not American...

Re: Like it, like it

[aquariusmama.livejournal.com]

War was declared, not in words, but in action. The country was Afghanistan because of their support of bin Laden. I feel like I am repeating myself on that one. Obviously we need to agree to disagree on that. The same thing goes for the proof, no one is going to bring you personally the proof at this time. (Unless you are cleared for classified information, in that case, go demand it!) I have seen enough proof to convince me.
I really am sorry that innocent people are dying. I did care about the women and children in Afghanistan before all of this too. I wasn't turning my head to it. Over a year ago I sat crying watching a television show on what the Taliban has done to people. They are sick bastards. As far as your last paragraph, I think it speaks for itself. The Taliban has never cared about the innocent people, they knew what would happen if they didn't cooperate...
As far as Americans changing policies, I don't know specifically what policy you mean. However, I think that changing policies depending on the situation and changes in the world is something that should always be open.

Re: Like it, like it

[gerbie.livejournal.com]

Okay, agree to disagree on the first point.

Chancing policies: Iraq benefited for ages, as the US considered Iran a threat, then when they invaded Kuwait, they were suddenly the villains.

Taliban, same story. Received weapons and money while they fought the Soviet Union, now they are the worst threat on earth.

Both examples to me show the 180 turn the US has made, as both Saddam Hussain and the Taliban have been following a fairly straight line (which I do not support btw, just to be clear) since they came into power.

Re: Like it, like it

[aquariusmama.livejournal.com]

You are right. Well, I am glad that the US made the turn. Politics especially international politics is a tricky business. I can't imagine trying to keep peace with the amount of insane leaders in this world. So, I guess sometimes you have to appease someone you don't like in order to get what you want or need at the time. Or, to keep the peace somewhere else and not start another conflict.

Re: Like it, like it

[gerbie.livejournal.com]

True, the task of a minister of foreign policies can't be a really easy one...

Re: Like it, like it

[gerbie.livejournal.com]

One of the LJ's I like to read is by insomnia. His opinion is always based on research and common sense. Read this:

http://www.livejournal.com/talkread.bml?itemid=12355141&nc=1

Doesn't it make you think these bombings could be wrong?

Re: Like it, like it

[aquariusmama.livejournal.com]

Whether the bombings are wrong or not is not the point. No other choice was given.
Bombing them with money as Insomnia suggests is great, except for not while the Taliban and bin Laden are in charge. They will take the money and further their own causes while allowing the people to suffer more. Of course, this would all be blamed on the US.
I am very leery of what is said to have been bombed. I think we learned a lot in the Gulf War about how misleading reports can be.

Re: Like it, like it

[gerbie.livejournal.com]

Insomnia can be quite sarcastic, but I haven't been able to catch him on factual injustice. It is right that the facts are fairly difficult. But cynic as I am, I distrust both sides to tell fables.

And as a pacifist I can't agree that there was no other choice. There is no official relation between the Taliban and Bin Laden. There is noone at war with the US. Bombings are wrong.

[tbone.livejournal.com]

Very interesting article. In general, I agree with what he says. I mentioned to my wife that the U.S. is going to come out of this looking very, very bad. This really is the time to try something new, and that's diplomacy. This conflict is not going to be won the traditional way. The USA needs to change the perception that unfriendly countries have of it. Bombings won't help that at all, even with the token food aid.

Re:

[gerbie.livejournal.com]

The food aid makes it looks worse. It is an obvious attempt to try to manipulate public opinion. The counry looks bad as they still judge the world through their eyes. As for the solution. I tried that with the post I wrote a day and a bit after the attacks. It was too fast and too controversial for most around here in LJ-land. A part of the world I rate high looking at the thinkers and progressives that are here. It got out of hand with huge discussions, something like 170 comments in the end.

But there is still hope.

[frannywentzel.livejournal.com]

Let's say Mr Bush had taken the 'moral' road and did nothing about Bin Laden and in response Bin Laden goes and releases a 1918 Spanish Influenza style virus upon the world - and do you really think he wouldn't? Would the 20 or 30 million dead really be glad to die because of the 'right moral choice'?

Bin Laden has spent the better part of the last decade in various attacks on the human race. He and his Tali-KKKlan supporters must be neutralised by any means necessary.

Re:

[gerbie.livejournal.com]

The moral road does not automatically imply that he doesn't do anything. At the moment he's doing exactly the same thing. Killing for the sake of showing you can kill. Innocents die, be it 5000 in NY, be it a couple of hundred in DC, be it several (and more to come) in Afghanistan. The country has suffered under the Taliban, it doesn't need more suffering.

[frannywentzel.livejournal.com]

Well at least the US is at least trying not to harm civilians in it's bombing raids, even to the point that planes are coming back with their armament. For the most part the US is targeting Taliban military assets. Bombs do go astray and civilians are dying but that really can't be helped so long as Osama and his Taliban protectors remain a viable threat to world peace. Now Bin Laden is (presumably) sending anthrax through the post with no concern for who gets infected (a six month old infant for example). So who's really the 'bad guy' in this one?

Ironically even though the US is air-dropping food to the Afgani people, they still get criticised. Seems Afganistan is a big time minefield and people are as likely to get blown up as get fed. You're damned whatever you do...

Re:

[gerbie.livejournal.com]

True, they are not trying. But does it matter if your parents get killed if the intention was there or not. The effect is the same.

the FBI and CIA are looking within the USA as well for whoever is responsible for the Anthrax attack. Horrible story as well, but there is no evidence at all against Bin Laden.

Offcourse the US gets criticised for their food parcels. It is a deliberate attempt to influence public opinion, not to really help at all. It is extremely cynical, and I hadn't expected a well thinking person as yourself to fall for that move. Hunger makes people do weird things, even risking their life by walking into a minefield. You could consider these parcels little bombs as well. Not evening mentioning the content of the parcel and it's explanation in english..